Welcome to Lesson 60 of the Latinum Institute Conversational Latin Course. Today’s word is the pronoun īdem, eadem, idem, “the same.” The Dickinson Core Vocabulary ranks it 59th among all Latin words. In Lesson 59 you learned tamen, the word of the unexpected result. Īdem is the word of the result you already know: it says that something is not new, not different, but the very one you have met before.
What does īdem mean in Latin?
Īdem means “the same.” It can stand beside a noun as an adjective, eadem via, “the same road,” or stand alone as a pronoun, īdem es, “you are the same (man).” Its neuter idem means “the same thing”: idem dīcō, “I say the same thing.” With quī or atque it means “the same as”: eadem est ac mea, “it is the same as mine.”
How is īdem built?
Īdem is the pronoun is, ea, id, “he, she, it, that,” with the little ending -dem, “just, exactly,” fixed to the end. Lewis and Short derive it from the stem of is and this suffix. So eadem is ea + dem, eiusdem is eius + dem, eōdem is eō + dem. If you know is, ea, id, you already know almost every form of īdem.
Two changes to watch
First, the masculine nominative singular is īdem with a LONG ī, but the neuter is idem with a SHORT i. Only the macron tells them apart in writing. Second, where a form of is ends in -m, the m becomes n before the d: eum → eundem, eam → eandem, eōrum → eōrundem. Say them aloud and you will hear why: the tongue is already in position for the d.
How does Latin differ from English here?
English says “the same as”; Latin says “the same who” or “the same and.” Īdem is followed by quī, quae, quod (a relative) or by ac, atque, “and”: īdem quī herī, “the same man who was here yesterday”; eadem ac mea, “the same as mine.” Never use quam (“than”) after īdem. Latin also uses īdem where English says “also” or “at the same time”: vir doctus et īdem modestus, “a learned man, and at the same time modest.”
The most useful phrase of all
Idem velle atque idem nōlle, “to want the same things and not to want the same things,” is the Roman definition of friendship. You will meet it in Section A, in Section F, and at the end of the dialogue.
Key Takeaways
✦ Īdem, eadem, idem means “the same”: it is is, ea, id + the ending -dem
✦ Masculine īdem has a long ī; neuter idem has a short i
✦ Before d, the m of is becomes n: eundem, eandem, eōrundem, eārundem
✦ “The same as” is īdem quī … or īdem ac / atque …, never īdem quam
✦ Īdem can also mean “also, at the same time,” and ūnus et īdem or ūnus īdemque means “one and the same”
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īdem /ˈiː.dem/: masculine. Two syllables, the first LONG: EE-dem.
idem /ˈi.dem/: neuter. The same two syllables, but the first is SHORT, the i of “pit.”
eadem /ˈe.a.dem/: three syllables, all short, stress on the first: E-a-dem. This is the feminine nominative singular and the neuter plural.
eādem /eˈaː.dem/: the feminine ablative singular. The middle ā is long, so the stress moves to it: e-AA-dem.
eundem /eˈun.dem/, eandem /eˈan.dem/, eōdem /eˈoː.dem/: the stress falls on the middle syllable, which is heavy.
eiusdem /ejˈjus.dem/: the i between two vowels is a consonant and is said double, as in eius /ˈej.jus/.
Key vocabulary for this lesson:
tunica /ˈtu.ni.ka/ — tunic, dress; taberna /taˈber.na/ — shop; pretium /ˈpre.ti.um/ — price; dēnārius /deːˈnaː.ri.us/ — denarius, a silver coin; Kalendae /kaˈlen.dae̯/ — the Kalends, the first day of the month; fōrma /ˈfoːr.ma/ — shape, cut; sapientia /sa.piˈen.ti.a/ — wisdom; amīcitia /a.miːˈki.ti.a/ — friendship.
This course gives the restored classical pronunciation: c is always /k/, v is /w/, ae is /ae̯/ as in “eye,” and qu is /kʷ/.
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60.1a Idem the-same-thing dīcō I-say
60.1b Idem /ˈi.dem/ same.ACC.N.SG dīcō /ˈdiː.koː/ say.1SG.PRES
60.2a Eadem the-same via road est it-is
60.2b Eadem /ˈe.a.dem/ same.NOM.F.SG via /ˈwi.a/ road.NOM.F.SG est /est/ be.3SG.PRES
60.3a Semper always īdem the-same es you-are
60.3b Semper /ˈsem.per/ always.ADV īdem /ˈiː.dem/ same.NOM.M.SG es /es/ be.2SG.PRES
60.4a Eundem the-same librum book legimus we-are-reading
60.4b Eundem /eˈun.dem/ same.ACC.M.SG librum /ˈli.brum/ book.ACC.M.SG legimus /ˈle.ɡi.mus/ read.1PL.PRES
60.5a Eōdem on-the-same diē day vēnērunt they-came
60.5b Eōdem /eˈoː.dem/ same.ABL.M.SG diē /ˈdi.eː/ day.ABL.M.SG vēnērunt /weːˈneː.runt/ come.3PL.PERF
60.6a Frāter brother meus my in in eādem the-same urbe city habitat lives
60.6b Frāter /ˈfraː.ter/ brother.NOM.M.SG meus /ˈme.us/ my.NOM.M.SG in /in/ in.PREP+ABL eādem /eˈaː.dem/ same.ABL.F.SG urbe /ˈur.be/ city.ABL.F.SG habitat /ˈha.bi.tat/ live.3SG.PRES
60.7a Ego I et and tū you eiusdem of-the-same magistrī teacher discipulī pupils sumus we-are
60.7b Ego /ˈe.ɡo/ I.NOM.SG et /et/ and.CONJ tū /tuː/ you.NOM.SG eiusdem /ejˈjus.dem/ same.GEN.M.SG magistrī /maˈɡis.triː/ teacher.GEN.M.SG discipulī /disˈki.pu.liː/ pupil.NOM.M.PL sumus /ˈsu.mus/ be.1PL.PRES
60.8a Eaedem the-same puellae girls quae who heri yesterday in in forō the-forum erant were hodiē today adsunt are-here
60.8b Eaedem /eˈae̯.dem/ same.NOM.F.PL puellae /puˈel.lae̯/ girl.NOM.F.PL quae /kʷae̯/ who.NOM.F.PL heri /ˈhe.ri/ yesterday.ADV in /in/ in.PREP+ABL forō /ˈfo.roː/ forum.ABL.N.SG erant /ˈe.rant/ be.3PL.IMPERF hodiē /ˈho.di.eː/ today.ADV adsunt /ˈad.sunt/ be-present.3PL.PRES
60.9a Tua your tunica tunic eadem the-same est is ac as mea mine
60.9b Tua /ˈtu.a/ your.NOM.F.SG tunica /ˈtu.ni.ka/ tunic.NOM.F.SG eadem /ˈe.a.dem/ same.NOM.F.SG est /est/ be.3SG.PRES ac /ak/ as.CONJ mea /ˈme.a/ my.NOM.F.SG
60.10a Marcus Marcus vir a-man doctus learned est is et and īdem at-the-same-time modestus modest
60.10b Marcus /ˈmar.kus/ Marcus.NOM.M.SG vir /wir/ man.NOM.M.SG doctus /ˈdok.tus/ learned.NOM.M.SG est /est/ be.3SG.PRES et /et/ and.CONJ īdem /ˈiː.dem/ same.NOM.M.SG modestus /moˈdes.tus/ modest.NOM.M.SG
60.11a Est he-is enim for is the-one quī who est is tamquam as-it-were alter a-second īdem same-self
60.11b Est /est/ be.3SG.PRES enim /ˈe.nim/ for.CONJ is /is/ he.NOM.M.SG quī /kʷiː/ who.NOM.M.SG est /est/ be.3SG.PRES tamquam /ˈtam.kʷam/ as-if.ADV alter /ˈal.ter/ other.NOM.M.SG īdem /ˈiː.dem/ same.NOM.M.SG
60.12a Quid what est is sapientia wisdom Semper always idem the-same-thing velle to-want atque and idem the-same-thing nōlle not-to-want
60.12b Quid /kʷid/ what.NOM.N.SG est /est/ be.3SG.PRES sapientia /sa.piˈen.ti.a/ wisdom.NOM.F.SG Semper /ˈsem.per/ always.ADV idem /ˈi.dem/ same.ACC.N.SG velle /ˈwel.le/ want.PRES.INF atque /ˈat.kʷe/ and.CONJ idem /ˈi.dem/ same.ACC.N.SG nōlle /ˈnoːl.le/ not-want.PRES.INF
60.13a Dīvīsiōnēs divisions vērō indeed grātiārum of-graces sunt there-are īdem the-same autem but Spīritus Spirit et and dīvīsiōnēs divisions ministrātiōnum of-ministries sunt there-are īdem the-same autem but Dominus Lord
60.13b Dīvīsiōnēs /diː.wiː.siˈoː.neːs/ division.NOM.F.PL vērō /ˈweː.roː/ indeed.ADV grātiārum /ɡraː.tiˈaː.rum/ grace.GEN.F.PL sunt /sunt/ be.3PL.PRES īdem /ˈiː.dem/ same.NOM.M.SG autem /ˈau̯.tem/ but.CONJ Spīritus /ˈspiː.ri.tus/ spirit.NOM.M.SG et /et/ and.CONJ dīvīsiōnēs /diː.wiː.siˈoː.neːs/ division.NOM.F.PL ministrātiōnum /mi.nis.traː.tiˈoː.num/ ministry.GEN.F.PL sunt /sunt/ be.3PL.PRES īdem /ˈiː.dem/ same.NOM.M.SG autem /ˈau̯.tem/ but.CONJ Dominus /ˈdo.mi.nus/ lord.NOM.M.SG
60.14a Et and velut like amictum a-cloak mūtābis you-will-change eōs them et and mūtābuntur they-will-be-changed tū you autem but īdem the-same ipse yourself es are et and annī years tuī your nōn not dēficient will-fail
60.14b Et /et/ and.CONJ velut /ˈwe.lut/ as.ADV amictum /aˈmik.tum/ cloak.ACC.M.SG mūtābis /muːˈtaː.bis/ change.2SG.FUT eōs /ˈe.oːs/ they.ACC.M.PL et /et/ and.CONJ mūtābuntur /muː.taːˈbun.tur/ change.3PL.FUT.PASS tū /tuː/ you.NOM.SG autem /ˈau̯.tem/ but.CONJ īdem /ˈiː.dem/ same.NOM.M.SG ipse /ˈip.se/ self.NOM.M.SG es /es/ be.2SG.PRES et /et/ and.CONJ annī /ˈan.niː/ year.NOM.M.PL tuī /ˈtu.iː/ your.NOM.M.PL nōn /noːn/ not.ADV dēficient /deːˈfi.ki.ent/ fail.3PL.FUT
60.15a Alme kindly Sōl Sun currū in-your-chariot nitidō shining diem the-day quī who prōmis bring-out et and cēlās hide aliusque and-another et and īdem the-same nāsceris are-born possīs may-you-be-able nihil nothing urbe than-the-city Rōmā Rome vīsere to-look-upon maius greater
60.15b Alme /ˈal.me/ kindly.VOC.M.SG Sōl /soːl/ sun.VOC.M.SG currū /ˈkur.ruː/ chariot.ABL.M.SG nitidō /ˈni.ti.doː/ shining.ABL.M.SG diem /ˈdi.em/ day.ACC.M.SG quī /kʷiː/ who.NOM.M.SG prōmis /ˈproː.mis/ bring-out.2SG.PRES et /et/ and.CONJ cēlās /ˈkeː.laːs/ hide.2SG.PRES aliusque /a.liˈus.kʷe/ other.NOM.M.SG-and et /et/ and.CONJ īdem /ˈiː.dem/ same.NOM.M.SG nāsceris /ˈnaːs.ke.ris/ be-born.2SG.PRES.DEP possīs /ˈpos.siːs/ be-able.2SG.PRES.SUBJ nihil /ˈni.hil/ nothing.ACC.N.SG urbe /ˈur.be/ city.ABL.F.SG Rōmā /ˈroː.maː/ Rome.ABL.F.SG vīsere /ˈwiː.se.re/ look-upon.PRES.INF maius /ˈmaj.jus/ great.ACC.N.SG.COMP
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60.1 Idem dīcō. → “I say the same.”
60.2 Eadem via est. → “It’s the same road.”
60.3 Semper īdem es. → “You never change.”
60.4 Eundem librum legimus. → “We’re reading the same book.”
60.5 Eōdem diē vēnērunt. → “They came on the same day.”
60.6 Frāter meus in eādem urbe habitat. → “My brother lives in the same city.”
60.7 Ego et tū eiusdem magistrī discipulī sumus. → “You and I are pupils of the same teacher.”
60.8 Eaedem puellae quae heri in forō erant hodiē adsunt. → “The same girls who were in the forum yesterday are here today.”
60.9 Tua tunica eadem est ac mea. → “Your dress is the same as mine.”
60.10 Marcus vir doctus est et īdem modestus. → “Marcus is a learned man, and modest too.”
60.11 Est enim is quī est tamquam alter īdem. → “For a true friend is, as it were, a second self.” (Cicero, On Friendship 80)
60.12 Quid est sapientia? Semper idem velle atque idem nōlle. → “What is wisdom? Always to want the same thing and to refuse the same thing.” (Seneca, Letters to Lucilius 20.5)
60.13 Dīvīsiōnēs vērō grātiārum sunt, īdem autem Spīritus; et dīvīsiōnēs ministrātiōnum sunt, īdem autem Dominus. → “There are different gifts, but the same Spirit; and there are different ministries, but the same Lord.” (1 Corinthians 12:4–5, Vulgate)
60.14 Et velut amictum mūtābis eōs, et mūtābuntur: tū autem īdem ipse es, et annī tuī nōn dēficient. → “And like a cloak you will change them, and they will be changed; but you are the same, and your years will not fail.” (Hebrews 1:12, Vulgate)
60.15 Alme Sōl, currū nitidō diem quī prōmis et cēlās aliusque et īdem nāsceris, possīs nihil urbe Rōmā vīsere maius. → “Kindly Sun, who in your shining chariot bring out the day and hide it, and are born another and yet the same, may you look on nothing greater than the city of Rome.” (Horace, Carmen Saeculare 9–12)
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60.1 Idem dīcō.
60.2 Eadem via est.
60.3 Semper īdem es.
60.4 Eundem librum legimus.
60.5 Eōdem diē vēnērunt.
60.6 Frāter meus in eādem urbe habitat.
60.7 Ego et tū eiusdem magistrī discipulī sumus.
60.8 Eaedem puellae quae heri in forō erant hodiē adsunt.
60.9 Tua tunica eadem est ac mea.
60.10 Marcus vir doctus est et īdem modestus.
60.11 Est enim is quī est tamquam alter īdem.
60.12 Quid est sapientia? Semper idem velle atque idem nōlle.
60.13 Dīvīsiōnēs vērō grātiārum sunt, īdem autem Spīritus; et dīvīsiōnēs ministrātiōnum sunt, īdem autem Dominus.
60.14 Et velut amictum mūtābis eōs, et mūtābuntur: tū autem īdem ipse es, et annī tuī nōn dēficient.
60.15 Alme Sōl, currū nitidō diem quī prōmis et cēlās aliusque et īdem nāsceris, possīs nihil urbe Rōmā vīsere maius.
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These are the grammar rules for īdem in Latin:
1. Form: is, ea, id + -dem
Īdem is a demonstrative pronoun made from is, ea, id and the indeclinable ending -dem. The is part declines; the -dem never changes. Like is, īdem has a genitive singular in -ius and a dative singular in -ī for all three genders.
2. The paradigm
Singular: Nominative: īdem (m.), eadem (f.), idem (n.) Genitive: eiusdem (all genders) Dative: eīdem (all genders) Accusative: eundem (m.), eandem (f.), idem (n.) Ablative: eōdem (m.), eādem (f.), eōdem (n.)
Plural: Nominative: eīdem or īdem or iīdem (m.), eaedem (f.), eadem (n.) Genitive: eōrundem (m.), eārundem (f.), eōrundem (n.) Dative and ablative: eīsdem or īsdem or iīsdem (all genders) Accusative: eōsdem (m.), eāsdem (f.), eadem (n.)
Lewis and Short record the variant plurals (eīdem, iīdem, īsdem, eīsdem, iīsdem); editors print them differently, and all are correct.
3. Three spelling rules
The masculine nominative singular is īdem, with a long ī; the neuter nominative and accusative singular is idem, with a short i. Compare 60.3 semper īdem es, “you are always the same (man),” with 60.1 idem dīcō, “I say the same (thing).”
Where is ends in -m, the m becomes n before -dem: eum → eundem (60.4), eam → eandem (60.16, 60.30), eōrum → eōrundem, eārum → eārundem. Older editions sometimes print eumdem and eamdem; the sound is the same.
The feminine eadem has three forms that look alike: eadem, nominative singular (60.2, 60.9); eādem, ablative singular, with a long ā (60.6); and eadem, neuter plural, “the same things” (Section F). Only the macron and the sense tell them apart.
4. Adjective and pronoun
Īdem agrees with its noun in gender, number and case, like any adjective: eadem via (60.2), eundem librum (60.4), eōdem diē (60.5), in eādem urbe (60.6), eiusdem magistrī (60.7), eaedem puellae (60.8). On its own it is a pronoun: īdem, “the same man”; eadem, “the same woman”; idem, “the same thing” (60.1, 60.12); eadem, “the same things” (Section F; 60.23).
5. “The same as”: īdem quī, īdem ac / atque
Latin does not say “the same than.” It joins the comparison with a relative pronoun or with ac / atque, “and”:
īdem + quī, quae, quod: eaedem puellae quae heri in forō erant (60.8), “the same girls who were in the forum yesterday.” Sallust writes eadem quae mihi, “the same things as for me” (Section F).
īdem + ac / atque: tua tunica eadem est ac mea (60.9), “your dress is the same as mine.”
Lewis and Short also give īdem with cum and the ablative, “the same as, together with,” but quī and ac / atque are the forms to learn first.
6. Īdem = “also, at the same time”
When the same person has two different qualities, Latin repeats the subject with īdem, and English says “also,” “at the same time,” “too”: Marcus vir doctus est et īdem modestus (60.10), “Marcus is learned, and at the same time modest.” Lewis and Short describe this use and compare it with quoque and etiam. In Lesson 58’s Cicero passage, sed īdem, “but these same men,” shows the same pronoun repeating the subject at the point of contrast.
7. Ūnus et īdem, ūnus īdemque
To stress identity, Latin adds ūnus, “one”: ūnus et īdem or ūnus īdemque, “one and the same.” The dialogue has ūna eademque fēmina (60.28).
8. Īdem and ipse
Īdem means “the same (as before or as another).” Ipse means “himself, the very one.” They often stand together: tū autem īdem ipse es (60.14), “but you are the very same.” Alter īdem (60.11) is “another self”: another person who is the same as you.
9. The neuter as a noun
Idem and eadem are used as nouns for “the same thing” and “the same things”: idem velle atque idem nōlle (60.12, Section F), nōs eadem semper volumus (60.23). Latin chooses: idem, singular, “the same thing,” or eadem, plural, “the same things.” English often says “the same things” for both.
Common Mistakes
Writing quam after īdem. Eadem est quam mea is wrong. Use ac or atque, or a relative: eadem est ac mea, eadem est quae mea.
Losing the macron. Īdem (masculine) and idem (neuter) differ only in the length of the first vowel; eadem (nominative) and eādem (ablative) differ only in the length of the second. Learn the long vowels with the forms.
Writing eumdem or eamdem as the rule. Classical texts usually have eundem, eandem, eōrundem. Recognize the m forms in older books, but use the n forms yourself.
Confusing īdem with item and ibidem. Īdem is “the same.” Item is “likewise, also,” an adverb. Ibidem is “in the same place,” built from ibi, “there.” In English footnotes, “ibid.” comes from ibidem, and “id.” from idem.
Confusing īdem with ipse. Ipse marks emphasis (“he himself”); īdem marks identity (“the same man”). Ipse vēnit is “he came in person”; īdem vēnit is “the same man came.”
Forgetting agreement. Īdem must take the gender, number and case of its noun: “the same city” is eadem urbs, not īdem urbs, because urbs is feminine.
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The Roman definition of friendship
Romans wrote a great deal about friendship, and many of them came back to the same idea: friends want the same things. Sallust puts it into the mouth of Catiline, speaking to his fellow conspirators: idem velle atque idem nōlle, ea dēmum firma amīcitia est (Section F). It is a striking choice. The most quoted Latin definition of friendship is spoken by a man plotting against his country, to men he is drawing into his crime.
Seneca’s correction
A century later Seneca took the same words and gave them a different use. To his friend Lucilius he defines wisdom, not friendship: quid est sapientia? semper idem velle atque idem nōlle (60.12). He at once adds a condition: what you want must be right, for nōn potest enim cuiquam idem semper placēre nisi rēctum, “nothing can always please anyone unless it is right.” Catiline’s conspirators wanted the same things; Seneca asks whether the things were good.
Cicero’s “second self”
In his dialogue On Friendship, Cicero has Laelius say that everyone loves himself, and that unless this love is carried over into friendship, a true friend will never be found: est enim is quī est tamquam alter īdem (60.11), “for he is, as it were, a second self.” The phrase alter īdem, “another same,” became a commonplace for the true friend.
Horace’s hymn to the Sun
In 17 BC Augustus held the Secular Games, a festival marking the start of a new age. Horace was commissioned to write the hymn, the Carmen Saeculare, sung by a choir of boys and girls. In it he addresses the Sun, which sets every evening and rises every morning aliusque et īdem, “another and the same” (60.15): a new day, the same sun. The prayer that follows is that the Sun may never see anything greater than Rome.
Īdem in the Bible
In the Vulgate īdem marks what does not change. Paul tells the Corinthians that gifts differ but the Spirit is the same (60.13). The Letter to the Hebrews, quoting a psalm, sets the changing heavens against the unchanging God: tū autem īdem ipse es, et annī tuī nōn dēficient (60.14).
Īdem in scholarship today
Latin īdem is still at work in English books. In a list of references, “idem” (or “id.”) means “the same author as above,” and “eadem” is sometimes used for a woman author. “Identity” and “identical” come, through late Latin, from the same root. The Romance languages did not keep īdem for “the same”: Italian stesso, Spanish mismo and French même all go back to forms of ipse. Among people who speak Latin today, īdem is the everyday word: idem dīcō, “I agree, I say the same.”
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Sallust, Bellum Catilīnae (The War with Catiline) 20.4. Sallust reports a speech that Catiline made to his supporters at a secret meeting in his house. Catiline tells them why he has dared to begin his great undertaking: he has found them brave and loyal, and he has seen that what is good and bad for them is the same as what is good and bad for him. The sentence ends with the famous definition of friendship. The macrons are editorial.
F-A: Interlinear Construed Text
F.1a simul at-the-same-time quia because vōbīs for-you eadem the-same-things quae as mihi for-me bona good malaque and-bad esse to-be intellēxī I-have-understood
F.1b simul /ˈsi.mul/ at-once.ADV quia /ˈkʷi.a/ because.CONJ vōbīs /ˈwoː.biːs/ you.DAT.PL eadem /ˈe.a.dem/ same.ACC.N.PL quae /kʷae̯/ which.NOM.N.PL mihi /ˈmi.hi/ I.DAT.SG bona /ˈbo.na/ good.ACC.N.PL malaque /maˈla.kʷe/ bad.ACC.N.PL-and esse /ˈes.se/ be.PRES.INF intellēxī /in.telˈleːk.siː/ understand.1SG.PERF
F.2a nam for idem the-same-thing velle to-want atque and idem the-same-thing nōlle not-to-want ea that dēmum and-only-that firma firm amīcitia friendship est is
F.2b nam /nam/ for.CONJ idem /ˈi.dem/ same.ACC.N.SG velle /ˈwel.le/ want.PRES.INF atque /ˈat.kʷe/ and.CONJ idem /ˈi.dem/ same.ACC.N.SG nōlle /ˈnoːl.le/ not-want.PRES.INF ea /ˈe.a/ that.NOM.F.SG dēmum /ˈdeː.mum/ only-then.ADV firma /ˈfir.ma/ firm.NOM.F.SG amīcitia /a.miːˈki.ti.a/ friendship.NOM.F.SG est /est/ be.3SG.PRES
F-B: Natural Text with Translation
… simul quia vōbīs eadem quae mihi bona malaque esse intellēxī; nam idem velle atque idem nōlle, ea dēmum firma amīcitia est.
“… and also because I have seen that the same things are good and bad for you as for me; for to want the same things and to reject the same things, that, and that alone, is firm friendship.”
— Sallust, Bellum Catilīnae 20.4
F-C: Latin Text Only
… simul quia vōbīs eadem quae mihi bona malaque esse intellēxī; nam idem velle atque idem nōlle, ea dēmum firma amīcitia est.
F-D: Grammar and Literary Commentary
Simul quia, “and at the same time because,” adds a second reason to the one Catiline has just given (that he knows his men to be brave and loyal). Simul, “at the same time,” is related in meaning to īdem: both speak of one and the same moment or thing.
Vōbīs eadem quae mihi bona malaque esse is an accusative and infinitive after intellēxī, “I have understood that …”. The subject of esse is eadem, neuter plural, “the same things”; bona malaque are its predicate, “good and bad.” Vōbīs and mihi are datives of reference: “for you,” “for me.” Quae mihi is the relative construction of Section D, point 5: eadem quae, “the same things as,” with the verb (sunt) understood. The -que of malaque joins bona and mala: “good things and bad things.”
Nam idem velle atque idem nōlle: two infinitives used as nouns, “to want the same thing and not to want the same thing,” each with idem, neuter singular, as its object. Nōlle is the infinitive of nōlō, “be unwilling” (nē + volō). The parallel is exact: idem velle / idem nōlle, joined by atque.
Ea dēmum firma amīcitia est. Ea, “that,” sums up the two infinitives and takes the gender of amīcitia, as Latin demonstratives usually agree with their predicate noun. Dēmum, “at last, only then,” here means “that and nothing else”: “that, in the end, is firm friendship.”
Sallust writes with compressed, balanced phrases, and this sentence shows why it was remembered: two short halves, each with idem, and a final clause that turns them into a definition. Seneca repeats the same idem … idem pattern in 60.12, and the dialogue quotes it in 60.29.
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A pedagogical dialogue, composed for this lesson and not a quotation. Claudia and Cornēlia arrive at their friend Līvia’s dinner party and find that they are wearing the same dress. It came from the same shop, on the same day, and the coincidences do not stop there. Every line of the dialogue uses a form of īdem.
Part A: Interlinear Construed Text
60.16a CLAUDIA: Salvē hello Cornēlia Cornelia Quid what videō do-I-see Eandem the-same tunicam dress gerimus we-are-wearing
60.16b Salvē /ˈsal.weː/ be-well.2SG.IMP Cornēlia /korˈneː.li.a/ Cornelia.VOC.F.SG Quid /kʷid/ what.ACC.N.SG videō /ˈwi.de.oː/ see.1SG.PRES Eandem /eˈan.dem/ same.ACC.F.SG tunicam /ˈtu.ni.kam/ tunic.ACC.F.SG gerimus /ˈɡe.ri.mus/ wear.1PL.PRES
60.17a CORNĒLIA: Ita so est it-is Eadem the-same tunica dress īdem the-same color colour eadem the-same fōrma cut
60.17b Ita /ˈi.ta/ so.ADV est /est/ be.3SG.PRES Eadem /ˈe.a.dem/ same.NOM.F.SG tunica /ˈtu.ni.ka/ tunic.NOM.F.SG īdem /ˈiː.dem/ same.NOM.M.SG color /ˈko.lor/ colour.NOM.M.SG eadem /ˈe.a.dem/ same.NOM.F.SG fōrma /ˈfoːr.ma/ shape.NOM.F.SG
60.18a CLAUDIA: Ego I eam it apud at Fabium Fabius’s ēmī bought Num surely-not tū you apud at eundem the-same-man’s
60.18b Ego /ˈe.ɡo/ I.NOM.SG eam /ˈe.am/ it.ACC.F.SG apud /ˈa.pud/ at.PREP+ACC Fabium /ˈfa.bi.um/ Fabius.ACC.M.SG ēmī /ˈeː.miː/ buy.1SG.PERF Num /num/ surely-not.INTERR tū /tuː/ you.NOM.SG apud /ˈa.pud/ at.PREP+ACC eundem /eˈun.dem/ same.ACC.M.SG
60.19a CORNĒLIA: Apud at eundem the-same-man’s Et and eōdem on-the-same diē day nisi unless fallor I-am-mistaken Kalendīs on-the-Kalends
60.19b Apud /ˈa.pud/ at.PREP+ACC eundem /eˈun.dem/ same.ACC.M.SG Et /et/ and.CONJ eōdem /eˈoː.dem/ same.ABL.M.SG diē /ˈdi.eː/ day.ABL.M.SG nisi /ˈni.si/ unless.CONJ fallor /ˈfal.lor/ deceive.1SG.PRES.PASS Kalendīs /kaˈlen.diːs/ Kalends.ABL.F.PL
60.20a CLAUDIA: Eōdemne at-the-same pretiō price Mihi to-me decem for-ten dēnāriīs denarii vēndidit he-sold-it
60.20b Eōdemne /e.oːˈdem.ne/ same.ABL.N.SG+INTERR pretiō /ˈpre.ti.oː/ price.ABL.N.SG Mihi /ˈmi.hi/ I.DAT.SG decem /ˈde.kem/ ten.INDECL dēnāriīs /deːˈnaː.ri.iːs/ denarius.ABL.M.PL vēndidit /ˈweːn.di.dit/ sell.3SG.PERF
60.21a CORNĒLIA: Mihi to-me quīndecim for-fifteen Īdem the-same mercātor merchant eadem the-same tunica dress nōn not idem the-same pretium price
60.21b Mihi /ˈmi.hi/ I.DAT.SG quīndecim /ˈkʷiːn.de.kim/ fifteen.INDECL Īdem /ˈiː.dem/ same.NOM.M.SG mercātor /merˈkaː.tor/ merchant.NOM.M.SG eadem /ˈe.a.dem/ same.NOM.F.SG tunica /ˈtu.ni.ka/ tunic.NOM.F.SG nōn /noːn/ not.ADV idem /ˈi.dem/ same.NOM.N.SG pretium /ˈpre.ti.um/ price.NOM.N.SG
60.22a LĪVIA: Salvēte hello amīcae friends Quid what hoc this est is Eadem the-same fēmina woman bis twice vēnit has-come
60.22b Salvēte /salˈweː.te/ be-well.2PL.IMP amīcae /aˈmiː.kae̯/ friend.VOC.F.PL Quid /kʷid/ what.NOM.N.SG hoc /hok/ this.NOM.N.SG est /est/ be.3SG.PRES Eadem /ˈe.a.dem/ same.NOM.F.SG fēmina /ˈfeː.mi.na/ woman.NOM.F.SG bis /bis/ twice.ADV vēnit /ˈweː.nit/ come.3SG.PERF
60.23a CLAUDIA: Rīdē laugh Līvia Livia Nōs we eadem the-same-things semper always volumus want
60.23b Rīdē /ˈriː.deː/ laugh.2SG.IMP Līvia /ˈliː.wi.a/ Livia.VOC.F.SG Nōs /noːs/ we.NOM.PL eadem /ˈe.a.dem/ same.ACC.N.PL semper /ˈsem.per/ always.ADV volumus /ˈwo.lu.mus/ want.1PL.PRES
60.24a CORNĒLIA: Dōnum a-present quoque also tibi to-you ferimus we-are-bringing sed but timeō I-fear nē that idem the-same sit it-is
60.24b Dōnum /ˈdoː.num/ gift.ACC.N.SG quoque /ˈkʷo.kʷe/ also.ADV tibi /ˈti.bi/ you.DAT.SG ferimus /ˈfe.ri.mus/ bring.1PL.PRES sed /sed/ but.CONJ timeō /ˈti.me.oː/ fear.1SG.PRES nē /neː/ that.CONJ idem /ˈi.dem/ same.NOM.N.SG sit /sit/ be.3SG.PRES.SUBJ
60.25a LĪVIA: Aperiāmus let-us-open Ecce look duo two librī books sed but īdem the-same poēta poet Ovidius Ovid
60.25b Aperiāmus /a.pe.riˈaː.mus/ open.1PL.PRES.SUBJ Ecce /ˈek.ke/ look.INTERJ duo /ˈdu.o/ two.NOM.M.PL librī /ˈli.briː/ book.NOM.M.PL sed /sed/ but.CONJ īdem /ˈiː.dem/ same.NOM.M.SG poēta /poˈeː.ta/ poet.NOM.M.SG Ovidius /oˈwi.di.us/ Ovid.NOM.M.SG
60.26a CLAUDIA: Eōdem in-the-same modō way cōgitāmus we-think Cornēlia Cornelia
60.26b Eōdem /eˈoː.dem/ same.ABL.M.SG modō /ˈmo.doː/ way.ABL.M.SG cōgitāmus /koː.ɡiˈtaː.mus/ think.1PL.PRES Cornēlia /korˈneː.li.a/ Cornelia.VOC.F.SG
60.27a CORNĒLIA: Idem the-same-thing ego I dīcere to-say volēbam I-wanted
60.27b Idem /ˈi.dem/ same.ACC.N.SG ego /ˈe.ɡo/ I.NOM.SG dīcere /ˈdiː.ke.re/ say.PRES.INF volēbam /woˈleː.bam/ want.1SG.IMPERF
60.28a LĪVIA: Vōs you nōn not duae two amīcae friends estis are sed but ūna one eademque and-the-same fēmina woman
60.28b Vōs /woːs/ you.NOM.PL nōn /noːn/ not.ADV duae /ˈdu.ae̯/ two.NOM.F.PL amīcae /aˈmiː.kae̯/ friend.NOM.F.PL estis /ˈes.tis/ be.2PL.PRES sed /sed/ but.CONJ ūna /ˈuː.na/ one.NOM.F.SG eademque /e.aˈdem.kʷe/ same.NOM.F.SG-and fēmina /ˈfeː.mi.na/ woman.NOM.F.SG
60.29a CLAUDIA: Rēctē rightly dīcis you-speak Nam for ut as ait says Sallustius Sallust idem the-same-thing velle to-want atque and idem the-same-thing nōlle not-to-want ea that dēmum alone firma firm amīcitia friendship est is
60.29b Rēctē /ˈreːk.teː/ rightly.ADV dīcis /ˈdiː.kis/ say.2SG.PRES Nam /nam/ for.CONJ ut /ut/ as.CONJ ait /ˈa.it/ say.3SG.PRES Sallustius /salˈlus.ti.us/ Sallust.NOM.M.SG idem /ˈi.dem/ same.ACC.N.SG velle /ˈwel.le/ want.PRES.INF atque /ˈat.kʷe/ and.CONJ idem /ˈi.dem/ same.ACC.N.SG nōlle /ˈnoːl.le/ not-want.PRES.INF ea /ˈe.a/ that.NOM.F.SG dēmum /ˈdeː.mum/ only-then.ADV firma /ˈfir.ma/ firm.NOM.F.SG amīcitia /a.miːˈki.ti.a/ friendship.NOM.F.SG est /est/ be.3SG.PRES
60.30a CORNĒLIA: Ita yes Crās tomorrow tamen however eandem the-same tunicam dress nōn not gerēmus we-will-wear
60.30b Ita /ˈi.ta/ so.ADV Crās /kraːs/ tomorrow.ADV tamen /ˈta.men/ however.ADV eandem /eˈan.dem/ same.ACC.F.SG tunicam /ˈtu.ni.kam/ tunic.ACC.F.SG nōn /noːn/ not.ADV gerēmus /ɡeˈreː.mus/ wear.1PL.FUT
Part B: Natural Sentences
60.16 CLAUDIA: Salvē, Cornēlia! Quid videō? Eandem tunicam gerimus! → “Hello, Cornelia! What do I see? We’re wearing the same dress!”
60.17 CORNĒLIA: Ita est! Eadem tunica, īdem color, eadem fōrma! → “So we are! Same dress, same colour, same cut!”
60.18 CLAUDIA: Ego eam apud Fabium ēmī. Num tū apud eundem? → “I bought mine at Fabius’s. You didn’t buy yours at the same place, did you?”
60.19 CORNĒLIA: Apud eundem! Et eōdem diē, nisi fallor: Kalendīs. → “The very same! And on the same day, if I’m not mistaken: the first of the month.”
60.20 CLAUDIA: Eōdemne pretiō? Mihi decem dēnāriīs vēndidit. → “At the same price? He sold it to me for ten denarii.”
60.21 CORNĒLIA: Mihi quīndecim! Īdem mercātor, eadem tunica, nōn idem pretium! → “Fifteen, for me! Same shopkeeper, same dress, not the same price!”
60.22 LĪVIA: Salvēte, amīcae! Quid hoc est? Eadem fēmina bis vēnit? → “Hello, my friends! What’s this? Has the same woman come twice?”
60.23 CLAUDIA: Rīdē, Līvia! Nōs eadem semper volumus. → “Go on, laugh, Livia! We always want the same things.”
60.24 CORNĒLIA: Dōnum quoque tibi ferimus, sed timeō nē idem sit. → “We’ve brought you a present too, but I’m afraid it’s the same one.”
60.25 LĪVIA: Aperiāmus! Ecce duo librī, sed īdem poēta: Ovidius! → “Let’s open them! Look, two books, but the same poet: Ovid!”
60.26 CLAUDIA: Eōdem modō cōgitāmus, Cornēlia! → “We think alike, Cornelia!”
60.27 CORNĒLIA: Idem ego dīcere volēbam! → “I was just going to say the same thing!”
60.28 LĪVIA: Vōs nōn duae amīcae estis, sed ūna eademque fēmina! → “You aren’t two friends, you’re one and the same woman!”
60.29 CLAUDIA: Rēctē dīcis. Nam, ut ait Sallustius, idem velle atque idem nōlle, ea dēmum firma amīcitia est. → “Quite right. As Sallust says, to want the same things and to reject the same things, that is real friendship.”
60.30 CORNĒLIA: Ita! Crās tamen eandem tunicam nōn gerēmus! → “Yes! But tomorrow we are not wearing the same dress!”
Part C: Latin Text Only
60.16 CLAUDIA: Salvē, Cornēlia! Quid videō? Eandem tunicam gerimus!
60.17 CORNĒLIA: Ita est! Eadem tunica, īdem color, eadem fōrma!
60.18 CLAUDIA: Ego eam apud Fabium ēmī. Num tū apud eundem?
60.19 CORNĒLIA: Apud eundem! Et eōdem diē, nisi fallor: Kalendīs.
60.20 CLAUDIA: Eōdemne pretiō? Mihi decem dēnāriīs vēndidit.
60.21 CORNĒLIA: Mihi quīndecim! Īdem mercātor, eadem tunica, nōn idem pretium!
60.22 LĪVIA: Salvēte, amīcae! Quid hoc est? Eadem fēmina bis vēnit?
60.23 CLAUDIA: Rīdē, Līvia! Nōs eadem semper volumus.
60.24 CORNĒLIA: Dōnum quoque tibi ferimus, sed timeō nē idem sit.
60.25 LĪVIA: Aperiāmus! Ecce duo librī, sed īdem poēta: Ovidius!
60.26 CLAUDIA: Eōdem modō cōgitāmus, Cornēlia!
60.27 CORNĒLIA: Idem ego dīcere volēbam!
60.28 LĪVIA: Vōs nōn duae amīcae estis, sed ūna eademque fēmina!
60.29 CLAUDIA: Rēctē dīcis. Nam, ut ait Sallustius, idem velle atque idem nōlle, ea dēmum firma amīcitia est.
60.30 CORNĒLIA: Ita! Crās tamen eandem tunicam nōn gerēmus!
Part D: Grammar Notes for Genre Section
The dialogue runs through most of the paradigm of Section D. Masculine: īdem color (60.17), īdem mercātor (60.21), īdem poēta (60.25), apud eundem (60.18, 60.19), eōdem diē (60.19), eōdem modō (60.26). Feminine: eadem tunica (60.17, 60.21), eadem fōrma (60.17), eadem fēmina (60.22), eandem tunicam (60.16, 60.30), ūna eademque (60.28). Neuter: idem pretium (60.21), idem sit (60.24), idem dīcere (60.27), eōdem pretiō (60.20), and the plural eadem, “the same things” (60.23).
Masculine, feminine, neuter, side by side. In 60.21 Cornēlia uses all three nominatives in one breath: īdem mercātor (m.), eadem tunica (f.), idem pretium (n.). Listen for the long ī of īdem and the short i of idem.
Poēta is masculine. In 60.25 īdem poēta, not eadem poēta: poēta belongs to the first declension, like a feminine noun, but it means a man, so its adjective is masculine. Agreement follows gender, not ending.
Eadem as “the same things.” In 60.23 nōs eadem semper volumus, eadem is neuter plural accusative. Compare eadem fēmina in 60.22, where eadem is feminine singular nominative. The sense, and the verb volumus, which needs an object, tell you which it is.
Ūna eademque fēmina (60.28) is the set phrase of Section D, point 7. In 60.29 Claudia quotes Sallust’s definition from Section F.
Other grammar points: 60.16 salvē, “hello,” is the imperative of salveō, “be well”; to two people one says salvēte (60.22). Gerimus, “we are wearing,” is from gerō, “carry, wear.” 60.18 apud Fabium, “at Fabius’s,” is the Latin way of saying “at someone’s shop or house.” Num expects the answer “no.” Num tū apud eundem? leaves out the verb (ēmistī), as people do in quick conversation. 60.19 nisi fallor, “unless I am deceived,” is a common way of saying “if I’m not mistaken.” Kalendīs is the ablative of time: “on the Kalends,” the first day of the Roman month. 60.20 the enclitic -ne turns eōdem into a question, and the stress moves to the syllable before it: eōˈdemne. Decem dēnāriīs is the ablative of price, “for ten denarii,” as duōbus assibus in Lesson 59. 60.24 timeō nē idem sit is a clause of fearing: after a verb of fearing, nē with the subjunctive means “that,” the thing you fear may happen. 60.25 aperiāmus is a subjunctive of exhortation, “let us open.” 60.27 volēbam, the imperfect, “I was wanting,” means “I was about to.” 60.30 crās tamen brings back Lesson 59’s word: they agree on everything, nevertheless they will not dress alike again.
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Long and short i. Dictionaries mark the masculine īdem and the neuter ĭdem. The masculine is said /ˈiː.dem/, the neuter /ˈi.dem/. Both stress the first syllable, as every two-syllable Latin word does.
Eadem and eādem. The nominative eadem has three short vowels and stresses the first, /ˈe.a.dem/. The ablative eādem has a long middle vowel, which takes the stress, /eˈaː.dem/. The difference is heard as well as written.
N before d. In eundem, eandem, eōrundem and eārundem the n is pronounced as written, /eˈun.dem/, /e.oːˈrun.dem/. The syllable before -dem is heavy, so it takes the stress.
Eiusdem. Between vowels the consonant i is pronounced double: eius /ˈej.jus/, eiusdem /ejˈjus.dem/. Maius (60.15) is the same: /ˈmaj.jus/.
Stress with -que and -ne. An enclitic pulls the stress onto the syllable just before it: aliusque /a.liˈus.kʷe/ (60.15), eademque /e.aˈdem.kʷe/ (60.28), eōdemne /e.oːˈdem.ne/ (60.20).
Variant forms. The plurals eīdem, īdem, iīdem and eīsdem, īsdem, iīsdem all occur in printed texts. Editions of the Vulgate print the masculine as idem without a macron (60.13, 60.14); this lesson adds the long ī, because the words agree with Spīritus, Dominus and tū, which are masculine. The same is true of alter īdem in Cicero (60.11) and aliusque et īdem in Horace (60.15).
Spelling. The Latin Library text of Sallust prints vobis and intellexi; some older editions print uobis. This course writes v for the consonant. In Sallust’s own spelling, the same chapter has maxumum and pulcherrumum, older forms of maximum and pulcherrimum. Macrons are editorial throughout.
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Course Index: [latinum.substack.com/p/index](https://latinum.substack.com/p/index)