### rembrandt style people eating fish at a feast
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Welcome to Lesson 23 of the Neo-Latin Colloquia series. Today we encounter one of Erasmus’s most entertaining and thought-provoking dialogues: the Ichthyophagia, typically translated as “A Fish Diet” or “The Fish-Eating Dialogue.” Written around 1522, this satirical colloquy features a spirited argument between two tradesmen — a Butcher (Lanio) and a Fishmonger (Salsamentarius) — who debate the economic and moral implications of dietary laws, particularly the Catholic Church’s regulations on fasting and fish consumption during Lent.
What begins as commercial rivalry quickly expands into a profound discussion of spiritual liberty, the difference between human-made rules and genuine religious devotion, and the absurdity of judging piety by what people eat rather than how they live. Erasmus uses the humble dispute between meat-seller and fish-seller as a vehicle for his characteristic critique of empty religious formalism.
What is this dialogue about?
The dialogue opens with the Butcher gleefully announcing that a new edict has abolished mandatory fish-eating during Lent — news that should theoretically devastate the Fishmonger’s business. However, the Fishmonger cleverly argues that human psychology works in reverse: when something is forbidden, people crave it; when it’s permitted, they lose interest. The dialogue then spirals into a hilarious debate about whose product is more disgusting — rotting salt fish or diseased meat — before ascending to philosophical heights about true Christian freedom.
Key Takeaways
In this lesson you will learn vocabulary for food, commerce, and religious regulation. You will encounter deponent verbs (especially vescor — to eat), the jussive and optative subjunctive, complex periodic sentences typical of humanist rhetoric, and the ablative case with verbs of eating. The text also demonstrates how Renaissance writers used classical Latin to engage with contemporary controversies.
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The following passage represents the opening exchange of the Ichthyophagia. Speaker abbreviations: LA = Lanio (Butcher); SA = Salsamentarius (Fishmonger). Word order patterns are marked in brackets.
23.1a [INT] Dīc tell! mihi to-me īnsulsissime O-most-unsalted Salsāmentārie O-Fishmonger nōndum not-yet ēmistī have-you-bought restim? a-rope
23.1b Dīc (deek) tell! mihi (MEE-hee) to-me īnsulsissime (in-sul-SEES-see-may) O-most-unsalted Salsāmentārie (sal-sa-men-TAH-ree-ay) O-Fishmonger nōndum (NOHN-doom) not-yet ēmistī (ay-MEES-tee) have-you-bought restim (RES-tim) a-rope
23.2a [SVO-elliptical + OPTATIVE] Bona good verba words Laniō O-Butcher Ista those-things sint may-they-be hostibus for-enemies nostrīs our
23.2b Bona (BO-na) good verba (VER-ba) words Laniō (LA-nee-oh) O-Butcher Ista (EES-ta) those-things sint (sint) may-they-be hostibus (HOS-tee-boos) for-enemies nostrīs (NOS-trees) our
23.3a [PER] Sī if nescīs you-do-not-know dīcam I-shall-tell Īnstat threatens tibi to-you tuīsque and-to-yours plānē utterly Saguntīna Saguntine quod as aiunt they-say famēs famine ut so-that rēs the-situation plānē utterly sit may-be vōbīs for-you-all ad toward laqueum a-noose reditūra about-to-return
23.3b Sī (see) if nescīs (NES-kees) you-do-not-know dīcam (DEE-kahm) I-shall-tell Īnstat (EEN-stat) threatens tibi (TI-bee) to-you tuīsque (too-EES-kway) and-to-yours plānē (PLAH-nay) utterly Saguntīna (sa-goon-TEE-na) Saguntine quod (kwod) as aiunt (AH-ee-oont) they-say famēs (FA-mays) famine ut (oot) so-that rēs (rays) the-situation plānē (PLAH-nay) utterly sit (sit) may-be vōbīs (VOH-bees) for-you-all ad (ad) toward laqueum (LA-kway-oom) a-noose reditūra (re-dee-TOO-ra) about-to-return
23.4a [INT] Unde from-where nōbīs to-us ex from laniōne a-butcher repente suddenly prōdistī have-you-come-forth Pÿthius a-Pythian-prophet quīspiam some-sort-of ut that dīvīnēs you-might-divine tantam such-great calāmitātem? calamity
23.4b Unde (OON-day) from-where nōbīs (NOH-bees) to-us ex (eks) from laniōne (la-nee-OH-nay) a-butcher repente (re-PEN-tay) suddenly prōdistī (proh-DEES-tee) have-you-come-forth Pÿthius (PEE-thee-oos) a-Pythian-prophet quīspiam (KWEES-pee-ahm) some-sort-of ut (oot) that dīvīnēs (dee-VEE-nays) you-might-divine tantam (TAN-tam) such-great calāmitātem (ka-la-mee-TAH-tem) calamity
23.5a [SVO] Nōn not est it-is dīvīnātiō divination nē lest tibi to-yourself blandīāris you-flatter rēs the-matter ipsa itself adest is-present in at foribus the-doors
23.5b Nōn (nohn) not est (est) it-is dīvīnātiō (dee-vee-NAH-tee-oh) divination nē (nay) lest tibi (TI-bee) to-yourself blandīāris (blan-dee-AH-rees) you-flatter rēs (rays) the-matter ipsa (IP-sa) itself adest (AD-est) is-present in (in) at foribus (FO-ree-boos) the-doors
23.6a [SOV → PER] Ēdam I-shall-reveal tuō to-your magnō great malō misfortune Ā from Rōmānō Roman Senātū the-Senate vēnit has-come ēdictum an-edict ut that posthāc hereafter līberum free sit it-be cuique to-each-person vescī to-eat quibus whatever-things velit one-wishes
23.6b Ēdam (AY-dahm) I-shall-reveal tuō (TOO-oh) to-your magnō (MAG-noh) great malō (MA-loh) misfortune Ā (ah) from Rōmānō (roh-MAH-noh) Roman Senātū (se-NAH-too) the-Senate vēnit (VAY-nit) has-come ēdictum (ay-DEEK-toom) an-edict ut (oot) that posthāc (post-HAHK) hereafter līberum (LEE-be-room) free sit (sit) it-be cuique (KWEE-kway) to-each-person vescī (VES-kee) to-eat quibus (KWEE-boos) whatever-things velit (VE-lit) one-wishes
23.7a [JUSSIVE + INT] Per by mē me quidem indeed vel even līmācibus on-snails vel or urtīcīs on-nettles vescātur let-him-eat quī whoever volet wishes At but num surely-not interdictum forbidden est is-it cuiquam to-anyone nē that-not vescātur one-eat piscibus? fish
23.7b Per (per) by mē (may) me quidem (KWEE-dem) indeed vel (vel) even līmācibus (lee-MAH-kee-boos) on-snails vel (vel) or urtīcīs (oor-TEE-kees) on-nettles vescātur (ves-KAH-toor) let-him-eat quī (kwee) whoever volet (VO-let) wishes At (at) but num (noom) surely-not interdictum (in-ter-DEEK-toom) forbidden est (est) is-it cuiquam (KWEE-kwam) to-anyone nē (nay) that-not vescātur (ves-KAH-toor) one-eat piscibus (PIS-kee-boos) fish
23.8a [SOV] Nōn no sed but data given potestās the-power vescendī of-eating carnibus meats quibus whatever fuerit shall-have-been collibitum pleasing
23.8b Nōn (nohn) no sed (sed) but data (DA-ta) given potestās (po-TES-tahs) the-power vescendī (ves-KEN-dee) of-eating carnibus (KAR-nee-boos) meats quibus (KWEE-boos) whatever fuerit (FOO-e-rit) shall-have-been collibitum (kol-LI-bee-toom) pleasing
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23.1 [INT] LA: Dīc mihi, īnsulsissime Salsāmentārie, nōndum ēmistī restim? “Tell me, O most unsalted Fishmonger, have you not yet bought a rope?”
23.2 [OPTATIVE] SA: Bona verba, Laniō. Ista sint hostibus nostrīs. “Good words, Butcher! May those things be upon our enemies.”
23.3 [PER] LA: Sī nescīs, dīcam. Īnstat tibi tuīsque plānē Saguntīna, quod aiunt, famēs, ut rēs plānē sit vōbīs ad laqueum reditūra. “If you don’t know, I shall tell you. A truly Saguntine famine — as they say — threatens you and yours, so that the situation is about to come to a noose for you.”
23.4 [INT] SA: Unde nōbīs ex laniōne repente prōdistī Pÿthius quīspiam, ut dīvīnēs tantam calāmitātem? “From where have you suddenly emerged to us from being a butcher as some sort of Pythian prophet, to divine such a great calamity?”
23.5 [SVO] LA: Nōn est dīvīnātiō; nē tibi blandīāris; rēs ipsa adest in foribus. “It is not divination. Don’t flatter yourself — the matter itself is at the doors.”
23.6 [PER] LA: Ēdam tuō magnō malō. Ā Rōmānō Senātū vēnit ēdictum, ut posthāc līberum sit cuique vescī quibus velit. “I shall reveal it to your great misfortune. An edict has come from the Roman Senate that henceforth it be free for anyone to eat whatever they wish.”
23.7 [JUSSIVE + INT] SA: Per mē quidem vel līmācibus vel urtīcīs vescātur, quī volet. At num interdictum est cuiquam, nē vescātur piscibus? “For all I care, let whoever wishes eat even snails or nettles. But surely it is not forbidden to anyone to eat fish?”
23.8 [SOV] LA: Nōn, sed data potestās vescendī carnibus, quibus fuerit collibitum. “No, but the power of eating meats has been given — whatever pleases.”
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LA. Dīc mihi, īnsulsissime Salsāmentārie, nōndum ēmistī restim?
SA. Bona verba, Laniō. Ista sint hostibus nostrīs.
LA. Sī nescīs, dīcam. Īnstat tibi tuīsque plānē Saguntīna, quod aiunt, famēs, ut rēs plānē sit vōbīs ad laqueum reditūra.
SA. Unde nōbīs ex laniōne repente prōdistī Pÿthius quīspiam, ut dīvīnēs tantam calāmitātem?
LA. Nōn est dīvīnātiō; nē tibi blandīāris; rēs ipsa adest in foribus.
LA. Ēdam tuō magnō malō. Ā Rōmānō Senātū vēnit ēdictum, ut posthāc līberum sit cuique vescī quibus velit.
SA. Per mē quidem vel līmācibus vel urtīcīs vescātur, quī volet. At num interdictum est cuiquam, nē vescātur piscibus?
LA. Nōn, sed data potestās vescendī carnibus, quibus fuerit collibitum.
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These are the grammar rules for this text.
The most important grammatical feature of this lesson is the deponent verb vescor, vescī — “to eat, to feed on.” Deponent verbs have passive forms but active meanings. Unlike regular verbs, vescor takes its object in the ablative case, not the accusative.
Compare these constructions with different verbs:
Regular transitive verb (accusative object): Panem edō. — “I eat bread.” (accusative)
Deponent verb with ablative: Pane vescor. — “I feed on bread.” (ablative)
In our text we see: vescī piscibus (”to eat fish”), vescī carnibus (”to eat meats”), vescātur līmācibus (”let him eat snails”). All the food words are in the ablative case.
The Interrogative Pattern [INT]: Questions in Latin often begin with the question word or, in yes/no questions, with particles like num (expecting “no”) or nonne (expecting “yes”). The verb typically follows early. In line 1, the imperative Dīc opens the sentence, followed by the vocative address, then the question proper with nōndum.
The Periodic Structure [PER]: Humanist Latin inherited from Cicero the art of the “periodic sentence” — a long, complex sentence where the main verb is delayed until the end, creating suspense. In line 6, notice how vēnit ēdictum (the main clause: “an edict has come”) sets up a long ut-clause that suspends resolution until velit at the very end.
The Optative/Jussive Subjunctive: The subjunctive mood can express wishes (optative) or gentle commands (jussive). In line 2, sint hostibus nostrīs (”may they be upon our enemies”) is optative — the Fishmonger is wishing ill fortune on others. In line 7, vescātur quī volet (”let whoever wishes eat”) is jussive — granting permission indifferently.
In tuō magnō malō (”to your great misfortune”), the dative expresses disadvantage — the person negatively affected by the action. Similarly, hostibus nostrīs shows the dative used with the optative subjunctive to indicate for whom the curse is intended.
The vocative case appears in direct address. Notice Salsāmentārie (O Fishmonger) and Laniō (O Butcher). Most second-declension nouns in -us form their vocative by changing to -e (Rōmāne from Rōmānus), but -ius words typically use -ī (fīlī from fīlius). Third-declension words like laniō typically keep the same form as the nominative.
The phrase līberum est cuique + infinitive means “it is free/permitted for each person to...” This is an impersonal construction where līberum is a predicate adjective, and cuique (dative) indicates the person affected. The infinitive completes the meaning.
Mistake 1: Using accusative instead of ablative with vescor. Remember: vescī piscibus NOT vescī piscēs.
Mistake 2: Confusing ut clauses. Result clauses (ut + subjunctive after expressions of degree) and purpose clauses (ut + subjunctive expressing intention) look identical but differ in meaning. Context determines which is meant.
Mistake 3: Misreading per mē as “through me.” The idiom per mē means “for all I care” or “as far as I’m concerned” — expressing indifference.
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adsum, adesse, adfuī — to be present, to be at hand (irregular; compounds of sum)
aiō — to say, to affirm (defective verb; only certain forms exist: aiō, ais, ait, aiunt)
blandior, blandīrī, blandītus sum — to flatter, to coax (deponent verb, 4th conjugation)
calāmitās, calāmitātis (f.) — calamity, disaster, misfortune (3rd declension)
carō, carnis (f.) — flesh, meat (3rd declension i-stem)
collibet/collubet, collibuit — it pleases (impersonal verb; quibus fuerit collibitum = “whatever pleases”)
cuique — dative singular of quisque (each person, everyone)
dīvīnātiō, dīvīnātiōnis (f.) — divination, prophecy (3rd declension)
dīvīnō, dīvīnāre, dīvīnāvī, dīvīnātum — to divine, to prophesy, to predict (1st conjugation)
ēdictum, ēdictī (n.) — edict, decree, proclamation (2nd declension; from ēdīcō)
ēdō, ēdere, ēdidī, ēditum — to put forth, to publish, to reveal (3rd conjugation; distinct from edō “to eat”)
famēs, famis (f.) — hunger, famine (5th declension, irregular)
forēs, forum (f. pl.) — doors, entrance (defective plural noun; in foribus = “at the doors,” idiom for “imminent”)
hostis, hostis (m./f.) — enemy, stranger (3rd declension i-stem)
interdīcō, interdīcere, interdīxī, interdictum — to forbid, to prohibit (3rd conjugation + dative + nē clause)
īnsulsus, -a, -um — unsalted, tasteless, insipid, stupid (from in- + salsus; superlative: īnsulsissimus)
īnstō, īnstāre, īnstitī — to threaten, to press upon, to be at hand (1st conjugation + dative)
laniō, laniōnis (m.) — butcher (3rd declension)
laqueus, laqueī (m.) — noose, snare, trap (2nd declension)
līber, lībera, līberum — free (adjective; līberum est + dative + infinitive = “it is permitted for X to do Y”)
līmāx, līmācis (m.) — snail, slug (3rd declension)
malum, malī (n.) — evil, misfortune, harm (2nd declension; distinct from mālum “apple”)
nēsciō, nēscīre, nēscīvī/nēsciī, nēscītum — to not know, to be ignorant of (4th conjugation)
nōndum — not yet (adverb)
piscis, piscis (m.) — fish (3rd declension i-stem)
posthāc — hereafter, from now on (adverb)
potestās, potestātis (f.) — power, authority, permission (3rd declension)
prōdeō, prōdīre, prōdiī/prōdīvī, prōditum — to come forth, to emerge (irregular; compound of eō)
Pÿthius, -a, -um — Pythian, of the Delphic Oracle (adjective; refers to Apollo’s oracle at Delphi)
restis, restis (f.) — rope, cord (3rd declension; restim emere = “to buy a rope” — euphemism for suicide)
Saguntīnus, -a, -um — Saguntine, of Saguntum (adjective; Saguntīna famēs refers to the famous famine during the siege of Saguntum, 219 BCE)
salsāmentārius, salsāmentāriī (m.) — fishmonger, dealer in salted fish (2nd declension)
salsāmentum, salsāmentī (n.) — salted fish, pickled fish (2nd declension)
Senātus, Senātūs (m.) — Senate (4th declension)
urtīca, urtīcae (f.) — nettle (1st declension; stinging plant)
vescor, vescī — to eat, to feed on (deponent verb; takes ablative of food)
volō, velle, voluī — to wish, to want (irregular verb)
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Here is a simplified version of the dialogue suitable for beginners, preserving the conversational Latin style while using more straightforward vocabulary and structures:
LA. Dīc mihi, Salsāmentārie: habesne pecūniam? Famēs tibi venit!
SA. Quid dīcis, Laniō? Cūr mala verba dīcis?
LA. Ēdictum novum vēnit. Nunc omnēs carnēs edere possunt!
SA. Et quid? Num piscēs edere vetitum est?
LA. Nōn vetitum est. Sed nunc nēmō piscēs vult — omnēs carnēs volunt!
SA. Nōn timeō. Homō quod habēre nōn potest, id maximē cupit. Sī carnēs līberae sunt, piscēs pretiōsiōrēs erunt!
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The following preserves spellings found in early printed editions:
LA. Dic mihi, insulsissime Salsamentarie, nondum emisti restim?
SA. Bona verba, Lanio. Ista sint hostibus nostris.
LA. Si nescis, dicam. Instat tibi tuisque plane Saguntina, quod aiunt, fames, ut res plane sit vobis ad laqueum reditura.
SA. Vnde nobis ex lanione repente prodisti Pythius quispiam, vt diuines tantam calamitatem?
LA. Non est diuinatio; ne tibi blandiaris; res ipsa adest in foribus.
LA. Edam tuo magno malo. A Romano Senatu venit edictum, vt posthac liberum sit cuique vesci quibus velit.
SA. Per me quidem vel limacibus vel vrticis vescatur, qui volet. At num interdictum est cuiquam, ne vescatur piscibus?
LA. Non, sed data potestas vescendi carnibus, quibus fuerit collibitum.
Source: Erasmus, Colloquia Familiaria (Basel: Froben, 1522)
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The following original dialogue adapts the Erasmian model to a contemporary debate on food choices, environmental ethics, and market forces. The rhetorical structure, wit, and commercial rivalry of the original are preserved.
Characters: -
Marcus (MA) — owner of a plant-based meat company -
Gaius (GA) — traditional beef rancher
MA. Salvē, Gaī! Nōnne audīvistī novum dēcrētum?
GA. Quid dēcrētum? Dīc mihi, Marce — semper malās nūntiās portās!
MA. Senātus Eurōpaeus statuēbat: carbōnis nota omnibus cibīs impōnenda est.
GA. Et quid? Bovēs meae paulum carbōnis ēmittunt!
MA. Paulum? Rīdēre mē facis! Bōs ūna plus carbōnis ēmittit quam currus per annum!
GA. At cibī tuī artificālēs sunt — in fabricīs factī, nōn in agrīs nātī.
MA. Artificālēs? Ē legūminibus veniunt! Terra nōn devastātur.
GA. Per mē quidem herbam edant hominēs, sī volunt. At num caro vera interdicta est?
MA. Nōn interdicta — sed pretiōsissima erit. Sōlum dīvitēs bovem edent.
GA. Hoc mē nōn terret. Homō semper cupit quod habēre nōn potest.
MA. Ergō ambō vincēmus: tū dīvitibus vendēs, ego plēbī. Utrum maius sit, tempus dīcet!
GA. Bene dīcis, Marce. Fortūna ambōbus faveat!
Translation:
MA. Hello, Gaius! Haven’t you heard the new decree?
GA. What decree? Tell me, Marcus — you always bring bad news!
MA. The European Senate has decided: a carbon label must be placed on all foods.
GA. So what? My cattle emit little carbon!
MA. Little? You make me laugh! One cow emits more carbon than a car per year!
GA. But your foods are artificial — made in factories, not born in fields.
MA. Artificial? They come from legumes! The earth is not devastated.
GA. For all I care, let people eat grass if they want. But surely real meat isn’t forbidden?
MA. Not forbidden — but it will be most expensive. Only the rich will eat beef.
GA. This doesn’t frighten me. A person always desires what they cannot have.
MA. Therefore we will both win: you will sell to the rich, I to the masses. Which is greater, time will tell!
GA. Well said, Marcus. May Fortune favor us both!
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This lesson is part of the Neo-Latin Colloquia series from the Latinum Institute, providing materials for autodidact students since 2006. Our methodology emphasizes reading authentic Renaissance Latin dialogues as the foundation for developing genuine Latin fluency.
Rather than abstract grammar drills, we believe the conversational style of the humanist colloquia provides the most natural path to thinking in Latin. These dialogues — created by master teachers like Erasmus, Cordier, Vives, and Mosellanus — were designed specifically to help students internalize Latin through realistic conversation and gradual exposure to increasingly complex structures.
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The Ichthyophagia demonstrates how Renaissance writers used Latin to engage with pressing questions of their day — questions about religious authority, individual liberty, and the relationship between external forms and inner devotion. These conversations remain remarkably relevant five centuries later.
Lesson 23 of 100 in the Neo-Latin Colloquia Series © Latinum Institute
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