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Welcome to Lesson 24 of the Neo-Latin Colloquia series. This lesson continues our exploration of Erasmus’s provocative Ichthyophagia (A Fish Diet), first published in 1526. Where Lesson 23 introduced the comic setup between the Butcher (Lanio) and the Fishmonger (Salsamentarius) arguing over whose trade would thrive under new dietary dispensations, this second portion moves into the theological heart of the debate: the nature of ecclesiastical law, the limits of human ordinances, and the relationship between Christian charity and religious observance.
Erasmus wrote the Ichthyophagia partly from personal experience — he suffered a physical aversion to fish so severe that the Pope granted him a dispensation from Lenten fish-eating requirements. Beyond the autobiographical element, however, the dialogue represents Erasmus’s broader humanist critique of religious formalism. The speakers debate whether fasting laws that harm the weak violate the very spirit of Christian charity they were meant to cultivate.
This excerpt showcases complex argumentative structures, including rhetorical questions, appeals to Scriptural exempla (the Maccabees), and sophisticated conditional reasoning. The vocabulary introduces ecclesiastical and theological terminology essential for reading Renaissance religious discourse.
What is this dialogue about?
This dialogue examines whether religious authorities who enforce fasting and fish-eating on vulnerable people (children, the elderly, the sick) commit a double sin: against brotherly charity and against the true intention of the Pontiffs themselves, who never wished their laws to bring harm rather than spiritual benefit.
Link to course index: https://latinum.substack.com/p/index
Key Takeaways: -
Objective genitive constructions (esus piscium = “eating of fish”) -
Periodic sentence structure in argumentative prose -
Verbs of preference with comparative infinitives (malo...quam) -
Ablative of means and ablative absolute in legal/theological contexts -
Rhetorical question formation for disputational discourse
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The text follows Erasmian humanist conventions. Key variations from classical orthography include: quum for cum (conjunction), cœlum simplified to caelum, and occasional ligatures expanded. Speaker abbreviations follow the 1526 edition: LA. (Lanio = Butcher), SA. (Salsamentarius = Fishmonger).
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24.1a Cur why igitur therefore laudati sunt have-been-praised fratres brothers Macchabaei, the-Maccabees [INT]
24.1b Cur (koor) why igitur (EE-gi-toor) therefore laudati sunt (lau-DAH-tee soont) have-been-praised fratres (FRAH-tres) brothers Macchabaei (mak-ka-BAY-ee) the-Maccabees
24.2a qui who maluerunt preferred duris by-harsh cruciatibus tortures exanimari, to-be-killed [PER]
24.2b qui (kwee) who maluerunt (mah-loo-AY-roont) preferred duris (DOO-rees) by-harsh cruciatibus (kroo-chi-AH-ti-boos) tortures exanimari (eks-ah-ni-MAH-ree) to-be-killed
24.3a quam than carnem flesh gustare to-taste suis? their-own [foods] [SOV]
24.3b quam (kwam) than carnem (KAR-nem) flesh gustare (goo-STAH-re) to-taste suis (SOO-ees) their-own
24.4a SA. SA. Opinor, I-think quoniam because hic this esus eating [SVO]
24.4b SA. Opinor (OH-pi-nor) I-think quoniam (KWO-ni-am) because hic (heek) this esus (AY-soos) eating
24.5a a by rege the-king praescriptus prescribed complectebatur was-encompassing [PER]
24.5b a (ah) by rege (RAY-gay) the-king praescriptus (prae-SKRIP-toos) prescribed complectebatur (kom-plek-tay-BAH-toor) was-encompassing
24.6a totius of-the-whole patriae of-the-fatherland legis of-the-law abnegationem. denial [GEN-CHAIN]
24.6b totius (toh-TEE-oos) of-the-whole patriae (PAH-tree-ay) of-the-fatherland legis (LAY-gis) of-the-law abnegationem (ab-ne-gah-ti-OH-nem) denial
24.7a Et And qui those-who pueros boys aut or vehementer very senes, old-men [PER]
24.7b Et (et) And qui (kwee) those-who pueros (poo-AY-rohs) boys aut (aut) or vehementer (ve-he-MEN-ter) very senes (SAY-nays) old-men
24.8a aut or alioquin otherwise invalidos the-weak adigunt compel [SVO]
24.8b aut (aut) or alioquin (ah-li-OH-kwin) otherwise invalidos (in-VAH-li-dohs) the-weak adigunt (AH-di-goont) compel
24.9a ad to ieiunium fasting aut or esum the-eating piscium, of-fish [OBJ-GEN]
24.9b ad (ad) to ieiunium (ye-YOO-ni-oom) fasting aut (aut) or esum (AY-soom) the-eating piscium (PIS-ki-oom) of-fish
24.10a bis twice peccant; they-sin primum first adversus against [SVO]
24.10b bis (bis) twice peccant (PEK-kant) they-sin primum (PREE-moom) first adversus (ad-VER-soos) against
24.11a fraternam brotherly caritatem, charity deinde then adversus against [PARALLEL]
24.11b fraternam (fra-TER-nam) brotherly caritatem (kah-ri-TAH-tem) charity deinde (DAY-in-de) then adversus (ad-VER-soos) against
24.12a mentem the-intention Pontificum, of-the-Pontiffs qui who nolunt do-not-wish [SOV]
24.12b mentem (MEN-tem) the-intention Pontificum (pon-TI-fi-koom) of-the-Pontiffs qui (kwee) who nolunt (NOH-loont) do-not-wish
24.13a eos them involvi to-be-bound lege, by-the-law quibus for-whom [SOV]
24.13b eos (AY-ohs) them involvi (in-VOL-vee) to-be-bound lege (LAY-gay) by-the-law quibus (KWI-boos) for-whom
24.14a observata [if]-observed perniciem destruction adferret. would-bring [CONDITIONAL-SOV]
24.14b observata (ob-ser-VAH-ta) [if]-observed perniciem (per-NI-ki-em) destruction adferret (ad-FER-ret) would-bring
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24.1 LA. Cur igitur laudati sunt fratres Macchabaei, qui maluerunt duris cruciatibus exanimari, quam carnem gustare suis? [INT + PER]
Why, then, have the Maccabean brothers been praised, who preferred to be killed by harsh tortures rather than taste flesh with their own [people]?
24.2 SA. Opinor, quoniam hic esus a rege praescriptus complectebatur totius patriae legis abnegationem. [SVO + GEN-CHAIN]
I think it was because this eating, prescribed by the king, encompassed the denial of the entire law of the fatherland.
24.3 Et qui pueros aut vehementer senes, aut alioquin invalidos adigunt ad ieiunium aut esum piscium, bis peccant. [PER + SVO]
And those who compel boys, or very old men, or otherwise weak persons to fasting or to the eating of fish, sin twice.
24.4 Primum adversus fraternam caritatem, deinde adversus mentem Pontificum. [PARALLEL]
First against brotherly charity, then against the intention of the Pontiffs.
24.5 Qui nolunt eos involvi lege, quibus observata perniciem adferret. [SOV + CONDITIONAL]
Who do not wish them to be bound by a law which, if observed, would bring them destruction.
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24.1 LA. Cur igitur laudati sunt fratres Macchabaei, qui maluerunt duris cruciatibus exanimari, quam carnem gustare suis?
24.2 SA. Opinor, quoniam hic esus a rege praescriptus complectebatur totius patriae legis abnegationem.
24.3 Et qui pueros aut vehementer senes, aut alioquin invalidos adigunt ad ieiunium aut esum piscium, bis peccant.
24.4 Primum adversus fraternam caritatem, deinde adversus mentem Pontificum.
24.5 Qui nolunt eos involvi lege, quibus observata perniciem adferret.
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These are the grammar rules for this text.
Word Order Analysis
This excerpt demonstrates several characteristic word order patterns of Neo-Latin argumentative prose.
The Interrogative Pattern [INT] appears in sentence 24.1, where cur (why) opens the question, followed immediately by an inferential conjunction igitur (therefore). The passive verb laudati sunt comes early, with the subject fratres Macchabaei following — this verb-subject inversion is standard in Latin questions.
The Periodic Structure [PER] is prominent throughout. In 24.1, the relative clause qui maluerunt duris cruciatibus exanimari interrupts before we reach the comparison quam carnem gustare. The reader must hold the entire complex in mind until the question resolves. In 24.3, the subject qui governs a long series of direct objects (pueros...senes...invalidos) before reaching the verb adigunt. The dramatic punchline bis peccant (they sin twice) comes only after this extended buildup.
The SVO Pattern (humanist tendency toward Subject-Verb-Object order) appears in 24.2: hic esus...complectebatur...abnegationem. This more “natural” order shows vernacular influence on Erasmus’s Latin.
The Genitive Chain in totius patriae legis abnegationem illustrates the Ciceronian technique of stacking genitives: “the denial of-the-law of-the-fatherland of-the-whole” = “the denial of the whole fatherland’s law.”
The Objective Genitive
A key construction in this lesson is the objective genitive, where a genitive noun receives the action implied by the head noun.
esus piscium = “the eating OF fish”
Here piscium (genitive plural of piscis) is the logical object of the verbal noun esus (eating). Compare English “love of country” where “country” is what is loved.
Other examples from the text include abnegationem legis (denial of the law) and mentem Pontificum (the intention of the Pontiffs — though this is possessive rather than objective).
Verbs of Preference with Comparative Infinitives
The verb malo, malle, malui (to prefer) takes a characteristic construction:
maluerunt...exanimari quam...gustare
“They preferred to be killed rather than to taste”
The structure is: MALO + INFINITIVE A + QUAM + INFINITIVE B. The comparison marker quam separates the two infinitive phrases. Note that both infinitives have different voices (exanimari is passive, gustare is active).
Ablative of Means
The ablative cruciatibus (by tortures) expresses the means or instrument of the action:
duris cruciatibus exanimari = “to be killed by harsh tortures”
The adjective duris (harsh) agrees with cruciatibus in case, number, and gender (ablative masculine plural).
Conditional Relative Clauses
The final clause contains a sophisticated conditional construction embedded within a relative clause:
quibus observata perniciem adferret
“for whom, if [the law were] observed, [it] would bring destruction”
The participle observata functions as a condensed protasis (if-clause). The subjunctive adferret (would bring) marks the apodosis as contrary-to-fact or characteristic. The dative quibus expresses reference: “for whom” or “in whose case.”
The Double Accusative with Verbs of Compelling
The verb adigo (drive, compel) takes an accusative object plus ad + accusative goal:
adigunt [eos] ad ieiunium = “they compel [them] to fasting”
The object eos is often understood from context.
Parallel Structure for Rhetorical Effect
Sentence 24.4 demonstrates parallel construction:
primum adversus fraternam caritatem, deinde adversus mentem Pontificum
The repetition of adversus + accusative creates balanced cola (rhythmic units), a hallmark of classical rhetorical style inherited by humanist Latin.
Common Mistakes
Confusing esus (eating, m.4) with esse (to be): esus is a fourth-declension noun derived from edo, edere (to eat).
Misreading quibus as ablative when it is dative of reference: context and the following clause structure clarify.
Taking observata as nominative feminine singular instead of recognizing the ablative absolute construction (with lege understood).
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abnegatio, abnegationis (f. 3rd) — denial, rejection. From ab- + nego. In ecclesiastical Latin, refers to renunciation of faith or law. Related to English “abnegate.”
adfero, adferre, attuli, allatum (v. irreg.) — to bring to, to bring about. Compound of ad- + fero. Here in imperfect subjunctive adferret expressing potential result.
adigo, adigere, adegi, adactum (v. 3rd) — to drive to, compel, force. From ad- + ago. Takes accusative + ad + accusative construction.
adversus (prep. + acc.) — against, opposite to. Also spelled adversum. Common in legal and theological discourse for opposition.
alioquin (adv.) — otherwise, in other respects. Introduces alternative conditions.
bis (adv.) — twice, two times. Multiplicative adverb. Emphatic in bis peccant (they sin twice).
caritas, caritatis (f. 3rd) — charity, love, affection. Christian theological term for divine love and brotherly love. From carus (dear).
caro, carnis (f. 3rd) — flesh, meat. Here in accusative carnem. The eating of flesh (carnium esus) is contrasted with fish throughout the dialogue.
complector, complecti, complexus sum (v. dep. 3rd) — to embrace, encompass, include. Here imperfect indicative complectebatur (was encompassing).
cruciatus, cruciatus (m. 4th) — torture, torment. From crux (cross). The Maccabees suffered torture rather than violate dietary laws.
deinde (adv.) — then, next, afterward. Sequential marker often paired with primum.
esus, esus (m. 4th) — eating, consumption. Verbal noun from edo, edere. Key term: esus piscium (eating of fish).
exanimo, exanimare, exanimavi, exanimatum (v. 1st) — to kill, deprive of life. From ex- + anima (breath/soul). Passive infinitive exanimari.
fraternus, fraterna, fraternum (adj. 1st/2nd) — brotherly, fraternal. Fraterna caritas = brotherly charity.
gusto, gustare, gustavi, gustatum (v. 1st) — to taste. From same root as English “gustation.”
ieiunium, ieiunii (n. 2nd) — fasting, fast. Ecclesiastical term for religious abstinence from food. Variant spelling: jejunium.
igitur (conj.) — therefore, accordingly. Postpositive in classical Latin but often second position in humanist usage.
invalidus, invalida, invalidum (adj. 1st/2nd) — weak, infirm, sickly. Substantivized in accusative plural invalidos (the weak ones).
involvo, involvere, involvi, involutum (v. 3rd) — to wrap up, entangle, bind. Passive infinitive involvi. Legal metaphor for being subject to law.
laudo, laudare, laudavi, laudatum (v. 1st) — to praise. Perfect passive participle laudati in laudati sunt.
lex, legis (f. 3rd) — law. Genitive legis in genitive chains. Totius patriae legis = of the whole fatherland’s law.
Macchabaei, Macchabaeorum (m. 2nd pl.) — the Maccabees. Jewish heroes who resisted Seleucid persecution; praised in 2 Maccabees for refusing to eat forbidden food.
malo, malle, malui (v. irreg.) — to prefer. Takes infinitive; with quam for comparison.
mens, mentis (f. 3rd) — mind, intention, purpose. Mentem Pontificum = the intention/mind of the Pontiffs.
nolo, nolle, nolui (v. irreg.) — to be unwilling, refuse. Takes accusative + infinitive: nolunt eos involvi (they do not wish them to be bound).
observo, observare, observavi, observatum (v. 1st) — to observe, keep (a law). Perfect passive participle observata in ablative absolute construction.
opinor, opinari, opinatus sum (v. dep. 1st) — to think, suppose, believe. First person singular opinor (I think).
pecco, peccare, peccavi, peccatum (v. 1st) — to sin, transgress. Theological term. Bis peccant = they sin twice.
pernicies, perniciei (f. 5th) — destruction, ruin, death. Rare fifth-declension noun.
piscis, piscis (m. 3rd) — fish. Genitive plural piscium in objective genitive esus piscium.
pontifex, pontificis (m. 3rd) — pontiff, high priest, pope. Genitive plural Pontificum. In Renaissance context, refers to the papacy.
praescribo, praescribere, praescripsi, praescriptum (v. 3rd) — to prescribe, ordain, command. Perfect passive participle praescriptus (prescribed by the king).
primum (adv.) — first, in the first place. Paired with deinde for sequential argument.
puer, pueri (m. 2nd) — boy, child. Accusative plural pueros.
quoniam (conj.) — because, since. Introduces causal clause.
rex, regis (m. 3rd) — king. Ablative rege in agent phrase a rege (by the king).
senex, senis (m. 3rd) — old man, elder. Accusative plural senes. Note: vehementer senes = very old men.
vehementer (adv.) — vehemently, greatly, very. Intensifies senes (old men).
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LA. Cur Macchabaei laudati sunt? Illi mori voluerunt, non carnem edere.
SA. Opinor quod ille cibus negationem legis significabat.
Et qui infirmos cogunt ieiunare aut pisces edere, bis errant.
Primum contra caritatem, deinde contra voluntatem Pontificum.
Pontifices enim nolunt nocere infirmis per suas leges.
Translation:
LA. Why were the Maccabees praised? They wished to die, not to eat meat.
SA. I think that food signified a denial of the law.
And those who force the weak to fast or eat fish err twice.
First against charity, then against the will of the Pontiffs.
For the Pontiffs do not wish to harm the weak through their laws.
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From Erasmus, Colloquia familiaria, Basel: Froben, 1522-1533. “Ichthyophagia,” based on the Latin Wikisource text and the 1888 Leipzig edition.
LA. Cur igitur laudati sunt fratres Macchabaei, qui maluerunt duris cruciatibus exanimari, quam carnem gustare suis? SA. Opinor, quoniam hic esus a rege praescriptus complectebatur totius patriae legis abnegationem. Et qui pueros aut vehementer senes, aut alioquin invalidos adigunt ad ieiunium aut esum piscium, bis peccant; primum adversus fraternam caritatem, deinde adversus mentem Pontificum, qui nolunt eos involvi lege, quibus observata perniciem adferret.
Rursus audivi, praecellentem quendam theologum, opinor Gersoni nomen esse, hoc addere, si quid extiterit causae paris momenti cum his, quae pontificum leges nominatim excipiunt, similiter cessare vigorem praecepti.
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A dialogue in a contemporary setting, maintaining Erasmian rhetorical patterns
Interlocutores: MEDICA (a physician), AMICUS (a friend)
AM. Cur igitur laudantur illi qui carnes omnino vitant, quasi sanctiores ceteris essent?
ME. Opinor, quoniam multi putant abstinentiam ipsam esse virtutem, non instrumentum sanitatis.
AM. At qui vehementer senes aut alioquin infirmos adigunt ad ieiunium severum, nonne bis errant?
ME. Recte dicis. Primum adversus caritatem, quae iubet nos alterius valetudinem curare.
AM. Et deinde?
ME. Deinde adversus ipsam rationem medicinae, quae noluit ullum praeceptum generale nocere singularibus corporibus.
AM. Ergo qui regulas sine exceptione imponunt, peccant contra mentem earum regularum?
ME. Ita prorsus. Christus enim dixit Sabbatum propter hominem factum esse, non hominem propter Sabbatum.
AM. Quid igitur de illis qui nunc “superfood” clamant, quasi unus cibus omnia sanaret?
ME. Hi sunt novi salsamentarii! Merces suas laudant, non veritatem quaerunt.
AM. Malo ergo cum medicis sobriis insanire, quam cum venditoribus vanis esse “sanus.”
ME. Sapienter loqueris. Vera sanitas in moderatione consistit, non in extremis.
AM. Gratias tibi ago. Nunc scio mihi licere panem et carnem et pisces edere — cum prudentia.
ME. Et cum gaudio! Nam tristitia ipsa est morbus.
Natural English Translation:
AM. Why then are those who completely avoid meat praised, as if they were holier than the rest?
ME. I think it’s because many believe that abstinence itself is a virtue, not a tool for health.
AM. But those who drive very old or otherwise infirm people to severe fasting — don’t they err twice?
ME. You speak rightly. First against charity, which commands us to care for another’s health.
AM. And then?
ME. Then against the very reason of medicine, which never wished any general rule to harm individual bodies.
AM. So those who impose rules without exception sin against the intention of those very rules?
ME. Exactly so. For Christ said the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.
AM. What then about those who now shout “superfood,” as if one food would cure everything?
ME. These are the new fishmongers! They praise their wares, not seek the truth.
AM. I’d rather be mad with sober doctors than be “healthy” with vain peddlers.
ME. You speak wisely. True health consists in moderation, not in extremes.
AM. Thank you. Now I know I may eat bread and meat and fish — with prudence.
ME. And with joy! For sadness itself is a disease.
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The Latinum Institute has been creating materials for self-directed Latin learners since 2006. This course uses authentic Renaissance colloquia — dialogues originally composed to teach living conversational Latin — as the foundation for modern language acquisition. By working with texts that were themselves designed for active use, students develop not only reading comprehension but the intuitive feel for Latin that comes from dialogue-based learning.
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The text-based autodidact approach presented here emphasizes close reading, grammatical analysis, and the development of active Latin competence through repeated engagement with authentic materials.
Source: Erasmus, Desiderius. Colloquia familiaria. Basel: Froben, 1522-1533. “Ichthyophagia” (lines 301-400 equivalent), based on Latin Wikisource text and the Leipzig 1888 critical edition.
Next Lesson: Lesson 25 will continue with Erasmus’s Coniugium (Marriage), exploring social commentary and domestic discourse.
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